By Daina Zalāne

Ļaudona, International Outdoor Singing Festival DABĀ, 28 June 2026

Participants: Mikko Keinonen (MiK), Carlos Norton (CN), Gatis Gaujenieks (GG), Mārtiņš Krastiņš (MK), Kaspars Bārbals (KB), Eero Peltonen (EP), lead by Daina Zalāne (DZ). Saucējas Elīna Elere (EE) and Vineta Romāne (VR)

DZ: Gatis could tell us about his experience in outdoor recording the traditional singing group Saucējas, which resulted in a major research on natural accoustic spaces in Latvia.

GG: Outdoor recording is linked to various technical problems, so two thirds of the recordings are usable, but one third were not – airplanes passing, buzzing of various kind, also wind rustling. Wind rustling through the leaves on the trees – in a mildly windy day it gets to a point that it becomes a very loud white noise cloud that deters the listening experience. I was able to reduce some of it using Plug-ins and noise removers and what-not, but generally – once they start moving – let`s go home and have a beer.

EE and VR: One third was not usable because of noise and one third because of our performance. I think in one of our locations – in Dviete – we didn`t use any of that material – it was a nice experience, but not usable. It was just flat land with horses. We chose the place because of the wild horses, and there were expectations that they could make some sounds, but it didn`t work.

In four years we produced around 180 recordings, of which we included 60 in the album.

GG: During the recordings we also had to pay attention to our clothing – if it is rainy and you have a poncho on that does crackling sound. Once it was pretty chilly and I had a jacket that was crackling – this is disturbing, of course.

You noticed in Sāviena – even when you walk around and the sound of the footsteps is interfering. So you have to stand absolutely still during a 14-verse song where you just hope that a big fly doesn`t fly by that sounds like an airplane buzzing.

Those experiences are teaching us, and that was in a nutshell my experience. I`m sure I could come up with more, but maybe later.

But last year we had the opportunity to travel to Portugal – the three of us with Kaspars and Mārtiņš, and do some recording in the wild there. Carlos was our „master-of-ceremonies” and took us to various places, they were very nice places and we could spend much time there. So we had some recording experiences – Mārtiņš and Kaspars also had the opportunity to go to Finland and do some recording there, so maybe they can share their experiences about recording in the wild.

MK: Well, I can sum up from all the experiences, that each location have some interesting echoe, or space that it creates, accoustic properties, that the singers are able to experience while singing, or while playing an instrument. And that is how space interacts with the performer. And it is also loud enough to be captured with a single microphone.  Those places are the best when you just need fine balance and you can hear.

These situations that Gatis described are very interesting – to use tele from a far distance – it is so amplyfied that it becomes almost unnatural.

GG: Sometimes it does depending on the background ambiance, but other than that – it is just a very sharp ear going that way. And thus we are able to get the bounce back from the trees or the rock faces.

MK: Yes we could get back some echoes from the rock faces and there were also some caves in Finland. In Portugal the places were very rocky, so the singers could hear their voices back. In Latvia we don`t have such places, maybe Sigulda, or Mazsalaca red cliffs. But also we could get three reflections of the voice, which was quite fascinating.

I have had other outdoor recordings – f.ex. A saxophone duo in a peat bog. The peat is doing perfect absorbtion of everything, so if there are any objects around you get a very clear reflection of any sound. It was the edge of a forest and a kind of amphytheatre – there were three layers where one could sit and the performers were in the centre. And you could get very close reflections like in a room, like a very dead room, but still you could hear echoes. And also – the best recordings were made in the dusk time, but you cannot be there too long because of the moisture.

GG: We also had a problem with moisture in the morning that makes the microphones make a bubbling sound.

KB: In addition to everything the gentlemen already said, I have a little bit different approach to this sound capturing, the technical aspect, because I am interested in three dimensional sound, so I can capture it not only in one or two directions, but what was actually happening around me. And for that I use this kind of microphone. Of course it is really important to have a windshield, which prevents wind from blowing int the microphone, underneath there is another windshield, and you can open it and see the actual microphone, and when you open it, you can see actually four microphones inside, and each one is pointed in a different direction and the technique is called ambisonics, you have four channels and this is one of the cheapest models, there are models with even more, at least eight microphones.

And when you import those channels into your sofware, you can code to various formats, and if you have a room – like I have in my studio, but people can also have in cinema or at home cinema studios, then you  can have all those speakers around you and above you, and then you can represent the sound very closely to the sound you would have standing next to the microphone. So you can hear the singers, the reflections, all the people talking in the front, and the wind and everything. Maybe sometimes it is capturing too much, so then it is better with the shotguns, so you can choose. But my aim is to explore all those locations, put them together in my studio and make some tests, so that I can make better decisions in the future in my projects.

I have listened to some of the recordings from this project from Portugal and from Finland and there are some good and some not so good examples, and when you visit my studio I can demonstrate those recordings. But you have to be in that room with all the speakers to decide, whether you like it or not.

CN: I have been for many years sound-scape recorder, so I know what it is to be out there in nature just with microphones recording. Not only birds, but rivers and people or whatever. Not just nature but cities as well. So that was one of the things what Gatis said – is how you move in your clothes and you cannot make an noise. You need to be standing there just recording sometimes for 15 minutes. Which is quite difficult if there are, for example, mosquitoes or ants crawling up your legs. That`s why I usually wear clothes that make no noise, that don`t interfere with the recordings.

But before that, because I`m a musician and I make music as well, together with Vasco we have been working for 20 years. 20something years ago I started working in a radio station in Faro, and I was a journalist and I was the morning voice, but then there was no sound person so I got in charge of the sound. I was doing all those sound pieces for commercials, for ads, for openings and clothings of the programmes. So I was doing some folly art in the studio with some objects and doing sounds, or I went outside to town with shotguns recording sounds to mix and create things. And also recording music in the studio, which is brilliant, because there is a big road outside with cars and I am in the studio and there is no noise and you can perfectly record everything.

That was fine until I got out of the radio because I moved to the mountains – and my house is isolated, there is no one around – there are some neighbours but they are quite far and they make no noise. When I moved to that place I realised I could record music just there at home, I needed no studio, because you need money to pay for the studio, it is expensive. Because I was using the radio studio for free, but now I would have to rent a musical studio. So I started recording, and I think it was while I played a banjo and Vasco said – oh, now you have to record that again because your chicken made some noise. And when I heard that I thought – ok, there is the chicken, but that sounds good, wh not include that in the recording? And in the end, that album we recorded – there is plenty of sounds of frogs, chicken, some birds.

It was not like with Saucējas – you wanted to go there and record also the sounds of the nature. We didn`t, we just wanted to record for free, it was an economical advantage, not for the sounds. But the sounds were ok, but maybe because of the kind of music we were recording. Maybe, if we would record Fado, for example, maybe the sound of the chicken wouldn`t suit. 

So now – I think we recorded three or four albums at my place, we learned also how to deal with that. Because it is my home I also use the electricity, so I don`t need all those portable devices. But now, especially after this project, now I can find a proper place if I want to get a specific sound for a specific purpose. So if I want to create some kind of specific music or there is a singer with a specific voice I might want to go to a specific place, because I know I have that sound and it suits just perfectly for what I want to record.

At the end – I`m not sure if I would ever want to go back to a proper studio again. It`s so boring! You just go inside a box, you put on your headphones, you just see a small window and somebody says – ok, now you can play! Or Try again! Instead of just sitting on a rock and watching the sunset and see a bird flying… That feeling is everything for a musician. Even if the quality of the recording is not perfect, the mood and the feeling of the artist makes it perfect.

DZ: Mikko, as the project leader – is this something that you had in mind when you were writing this project?

MiK: Well, yeah, the idea was that you can develop whatever. I can tell about the background – I worked in documentary films for 30 years and and recording outside is not new for me and I worked with very good recorders and sometimes it is a very short win. When somebody claims to be a professional and they say that they know how to deal with the shooting. Sometimes I work with them just to keep someone with the boom.

We have this Ancient Association of Heinavesi and we already had this idea that we would bring musicians there. I wanted to combine those ancient locations with all art, but especially with music. I always like working with musicians and music is very important. It`s easy to work with a musician because I don`t play any instrument, I write and direct and shoot and edit and produce, so it would be like being in somebody elses area if there was another filmmaker.

How the project started – we had our first Ancient week three years ago, and I decided that day because I wanted two musicians, that was Alexey Chichakov, a throat singer from Altay to play with Risto Ylihärsilä, a crazy garage pop, whatever he makes, but a great composer. And there was just one day that fit them both and that was the day when we arranged the concert. Three weaks before the concert we finally got financing so I spent three weeks to get the people in. And then – we had the concert in Heinavesi in the harbour. And there was Eero singing, and Harry Loiva was arranging the concert with me. He was just walking to us and he noticed on the way that there was like a three dimensional echoe. And then we started thinking – hey, we could really use this, let`s make a project out of this. And I had original funding for another project where we were making QR codes and chosing those locations. And I asked them – could we have funding for this. And they said, well you have this financing already, we cannot give you another funding for something that is so similar to that.

And then I was thinking – where can we get the money – and I thought – let`s try Creative Europe, the most difficult of all of them. When I got this idea our vice-chairman said – you can make a project out of this. And I said we need to find some international companions. The same night I saw videos by Chanan Hanspal, he`s a jazz musician, composer, researcher and senior lecturer at the University of Cambridge. I really loved him, I wrote to him and he replied a few hours later, and he said – yes, I would really love if you would use my music in that film. One week later we already had a Zoom call, and then I told him that we had this idea of taking musicians to these ancient places in nature. And he said – that is so unique and then we just realised it ourselves.

And then we started looking for partners and Eero knew Lauska and they knew Carlos. It was just a month before the deadline, when we started having Zoom calls, and I remember people, they were like – I don`t know what this porject is about and what do you want me to do? And I said – you`re an artist, I`m giving a forum for you that you can do something – do you art! Why do you ask me? I had one call with Chanan Hanspal andMike Keneally. Mike played with Frank Zappa and Steve Vai, a top player. Mike and Chanan were just talking and they were so excited and I said – do you understand that you are coming practically to my backyard. They said, yes, musicians are looking for new things and this is so unique, and also Mike also asked me – as this is an accoustic project, do you want me to play an accoustic guitar? I said – you`re one of the best guitar players in the world, why do you as me? Of course you can do whatever you wish.

So that is how we got to chose – first there was a total chaos of ideas, and then finally, about one week before the deadline I started writing the project and it was funny that this chaos, when I finally wrote it, it was practically the idea we had at the beginning. But it was much wider, much deeper, it had much more deep dives, a lot of small pickings from here and there and I put them together.

Because I`m a documentary film maker, when making a documentary you cannot predict – you go to a situation, you expect that something may happen, you have some idea, but you just follow. And then you make the structure afterwards. It`s kind of the same thing. One thing that Carlos said – that a studio can be in certain places and our idea is to make a chain of open-air studios so that for us, the studio status is based on knowledge. We learn where to put the microphones and when to go there and that we don`t need to build anything but we know about those places. The way to get to know about those places is to bring those musicians or artists, to record those artists and bring those researchers there, just to try. It`s actually a constant process, we are never ready because we are dealing with nature, the only thing that stayes is change.

I also like to reflect about the human relationship with nature nowadays. For example – you are building a house. If there are trees, you cut all the trees and if there is a hill you take an excavator and you move the hill ten meters, put it in another place. You destroy everything and then you start building out of nothing. I built a house next to the house where I live now and we did it differently – we cut as little trees as possible.

But also an indoors studio, a traditional studio, it`s an isolated space where you try to create the environment artificially. But here we have the environment already and we do everything on nature`s terms. We turn the positions totally upside down. Modern humans try to control the whole world – they try to change everything just because they can. But we just let go, we just listen, we just see how it goes. Control comes afterwards, when we are picking material. 

What I said right at the beginning, what I would like to add – Chanan Haspal made a PhD on Frank Zappas compositions and what I really like about Zappa – he recorded absolutely everything. When getting those musicians to those places, you never know what will happen and when. We should be ready to record anytime. For example – when Chanan Hanspal and Mike Keneally came to Heinavesi, Chanan had three students with him – two sound students and one filmmaker. And especially the filmmaker guy was like, when we shot the duet of Chanan and Mike in my yard by the lake, I put a bench there for them to sit and play, and then Alex comes there and moves the bench some 3 meters to the side. And I said, what are you doing, and he said – I want to have the lake in the background, it`s in my plan. And then he puts Chanan to sit there with the camera on the tripod, and says – hey, move to the side etc. I was like – what are you doing, you move the camera, you don`t move the musicians! But he was like fixing that about 15 minutes. And after ten minutes he moved the bench back where I had put it. And then I realised, I could have done it in two seconds with a hand-held camera. And then they started doing soundcheck. Mike came there and it was the first time that they met live and they had two instruments. Of course they started jamming, playing King Crimson and Radiohead and whatever, and I saw it on my material later – Alex was just walking away in the background, because it wasn`t in his plan. And that was actually the most magic moment there. And also about those sound recorders, when we had a break I was asking – do we have anything recorded, and they said – no, we are not ready, we don`t have everything ready. I said – press the red button, get some sound. It doesn`t have to be perfect, of course a perfect sound is great, but it doesn`t mean if the sound is not perfect we don`t take anything!

And it was also when we had the recording session in Portugal a year ago. Or in Heinavesi we had Patrick Tubin McGinley, and Eero crawled under a stone and started playing o the stones, that will be in the film, it was a truly magic moment. Because the project is called Echoes of the Ancient and we are going to all those places and people say – oh no, but there`s no echoe! It is not only about echoes, it`s about everything. Whatever place inspires! It sounds good – if somebody gets an idea then finally  the documentary content is the key. In the end it is what you do there – whatever kind of music or sound art or whatever, if there is just technically perfect nothing, it will be just nothing.

CN: There are also some problems about recording outdoors. Obviously, there is a problem with nature itself. I mean, you can book a studio and they say sorry, we are only available in October – so ok, let`s book in October. But once you have booked a studio, you are there recording there is no problem. But if you decided to record in August, but it`s raining the whole month, or it`s strong wind the whole month and you cannot record. So we cannot predict and that may take too much time to record something. But the other problem is the recording itself. Because we are recording a group of great singers, or we can record a band playing, but it is quite difficult to record by tracks. I`m a multi-instrument player, so I sometimes record 25 instruments in one recording, so I record 25 instruments one by one. If I`m outdoors with some specific sounds, it will be too noisy at the end. Because imagine – there may be one bird in that track, but 25 birds overlapping each other, it`s impossible. So – if you want to record many tracks, it`s a problem. Either you find a very silent outdoor place or it`s almost impossible to do. And by experience, obviously there are microphones that avoid the external sound and focus on the instrument – then you have to choose the proper equipment.

GG: It depends on what is your product. If you have an idea what your product is, then outdoors may be the only way to get it. If you want to make a commercial for cough medicine, you probably go into the studio and record the cough medicine. If you have some idea, of course, the improvisation and the magic moment is magic, but if you have a contract where it says – I need 14 arrangements for folk dances by the end of October, you can`t go outside and start with someone playing koklīte and a couple of birds will be singing along and a little quicker, little slower, a waltz or whatever.

CN: Of course it is a conversation between musician and nature. If you need to be really focused and in absolute concentration then you cannot go outside and get distracted and involve everything else – then you have to go to that boring studio.

MiK: I just got stuck with the cough medicine! I`m just imagining the reaction of the client – hey, what is this? Well this is the sound of the cough medicine bottle standing by the lake shore. It`s great – all natural!

But what I also said about the project – it`s open – if somebody gets an idea from being here outside and goes to a studio and records it – fine! There is no right or wrong. But what Carlos said – that it`s cheaper, but then there are things that you can only do in a studio. As a filmmaker – I started as a documentary filmmaker, but I have also done a lot of music videos and also fiction and short-films and so on. I have never been to film school, I have a journaist education. What they teach in the film school – that you need to make a storyboard. That you have to draw every picture and that`s the right way to do it. But I have never made a storyboard. And the thing is – if you try that, you have very small resources. First thing – you are making a ten minutes short film. You spend few weeks drawing a storyboard, and then you go to those locations and you realise – this doesn`t look as I imagined. And then you try to fit your plan in a place that doesn`t fit there. But then you need to fit the plan because you have this plan. For me it`s more like – ok, I have an idea but I want to go there and see how it works, and then I can get ideas out of the environment.

DZ: Maybe Kaspars can comment because he has made videos in strange places all over the world, actually.

KB: Normally I create a storyboard, because I have to get my idea at least in some kind of fixed format. And I know that my music is like 3 minutes and I have to fit so many ideas into that. But of course, when I come to those strange places I often have this situation – it looks different. But I am open to adapt my ideas to that, only I know the timeframe. So, it`s similar, but with a storyboard.

EP: My approach is like that, I think 30 years ago I found in Dublin an album that was dedicated to old buildings and places, like the mills and waterfalls, and I got fascinated about that and then I was planning a happening in Hamenlinna castle and there is the longest echoe in Finland, it`s like 8 seconds in the Kings hall, and then I was thinking, well that is great for some voice work, Gregorian stuff or something, and then I was thinking about different spaces in the castle, how different kind of music you could make in the castle. The spaces are basically creating the connection between the music and the singers. And that is what I`m fascinated by. And I`m also in Archeoacoustics, I was hanging out with one of the founders of Archeoacoustics, sound archeology and he was testing the sounds in the caves with the cave paintings, like in Southern France already in the 1990ies, and that is also fascinating. And I was driving to these old graves and places like this and tried those sounds. And I was thinking – what kind of sounds could people want to do in this kind of space and then I tested with myself and then I got a bit more understanding about the space itself and then I could maybe add a song or music into that, but later. That`s my approach.

KB: Yesterday we witnessed that moment when the singers were standing by the lake and made a chant and then waited for the feedback or delay to come, and then they were ready for the next – that is how the space impacts the music.

EP: Yes, the singer – Lauma – she was singing and waiting for the echoes, and there were like six of seven echoes, so that is also crucial the pacing with the music.

GG: When we were recording with Saucējas, there were times when the song is just too fast, or you would start the next verse too soon, because it is one after the other and you have no opportunity for the environment to answer you.

EE: And especially with the super fine microphones – because we can only hear the echoes that we can hear, but there is some hidden echoe that we don`t hear and it could be recorded.

VR: In these recordings in nature we just understood how we have to sing some kind of songs, for example there is a specific tradition in Selonia – these spring songs, rotāšanas, where at the end there is „jai!”. We though well, there is „jai”, but we didn`t understand the purpose. But it fits so well in nature acoustics, this sharp ending makes these echoe waves. Yes, we realised that we have to make a pause between verses, not sing in a row like on the stage.

EE: Ancient knowledge.

MiK: Before we started the project we already had the Ancient week application and we were in one place and Anna Fält was singing and I had to advice her – wait a bit! Because a couple of echoes came, and they started singing again, but it was not 2 seconds, it was 3 seconds – be silent for a moment! Also Chanan Hanspal said as he was the first one to come, and there is a place on lake Kermajärvi, there is a 30m high cliff and 100 m wide and it is like a wall – you get a really clear echoe back. He really realised that you have to play less, listen and then he actually had a dialogue with a raven there, or he replied to a raven.

EP: I was once in Zurich in the Fraumunster crypt and the echoe was so strong. You know the Gregorians are very slow and I hzd to slow even them down. But it would be fascinating to sing a canon on the top of yourself. That would be very inspiring to test how it could be done in that kind of places. Also the Kings Hall in Hamenlinna castle – 8 seconds. I think you could do all kinds of magic with it. Also with a choir. It`s like ancient looping!

MiK: Martina, she found a spring, the lake was still frozen, so the longest delay we got was about six seconds and there were like nine echoes coming from different directions.

It was also nice when Eero jammed with Alexey Chichakov and Eero was playing a stone – nature`s pedal!

MiK: One challenge is also humans making noise, when we had this first session, we had some amateur musicians joining and they didn`t stay quiet during the session.

CN: There is also a technique to record an instrument – you put one microphone on the strings, but a second one to the body of the instrument, so you can hear the whole instrument, the noise and music coming from that instrument, and that makes it more close to you. You feel more that you are inside the recording.

GG: About breathing – that is not that bad, more noise comes from saliva in your mouth and also when the dental replacements start squeaking. And clothing and if you hold something in your hands and play with it, and foot movements.

KB: But that is why you have to have your headphones on while recording, so you can detect those sounds and try to avoid.

CN: It`s much worse in the studio, when you have only the microphone in front of you and you can catch everything that is going on in your mouth.

EE: That is what is cool in nature – you don`t catch all the details, but the sound is more whole, it has more space, it is spacial, it is not flat.